Current mood:	shocked
Entry tags:	religion

Warning: I am so furious that I can barely see
One of the reasons I've been disturbed by the response to the post mamadeb made about the timing of the yuletide sign-ups is that it was exactly the kind of passive-aggressive, whiny, why-isn't-this-all-about-me? post I might make myself, if not on that precise topic. The response, frankly, seemed disproportionate to the content.

The other is... OK, that was how many days ago? Not all that many. And since then, there's been a certain amount of comment on the subject, some of it using words like "entitlement" and others using phrases like "suck it up." And in the meantime, a certain amount of straightforward anti-semitic content, and now someone went ahead and called someone else a kike. Anonymously, of course.

And I want to say that I'm surprised, and that I really don't think one thing led to the next, except that really, I wasn't, and really I do. And if you feel insulted by that, and think I'm calling you an anti-semite, maybe you should defriend me. Seriously. If you can't look at a post like this one, and see why the comments quoted are insulting and offensive... if you can't say "that was wrong," full stop, if you have to say, "that was wrong, but..." then you should defriend me.

I honestly don't care what kind of history you have with any of the people involved. This is about your history with me.

I'm thinking of a comment chopchica made on untrue_accounts' extremely sensible post on the original, yuletide issue, about how nervous Jews often are about posting on this issue, especially perhaps in contexts in which we're otherwise happy and secure, like fandom. We don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to find out what's lurking under the water. We don't want some anonymous fucktard to come along and call us a kike.

I understand that fear -- I mean, hey, it is my own fear! -- and at least in my part, it's based in distrust: my distrust of you, a group of people I know well and like very much. And you know, I don't want to distrust you. I don't want to feel like I can't speak my mind, or say that something makes me feel uncomfortable or excluded. I don't want to worry about what will happen if I seem too Jewish. I'm not too Jewish. I'm Jewish.

I'm really, really tempted to add, as a final line, "Suck it up," but I guess it would be hypocritical.

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(114 comments) - (Post a new comment)

cidercupcakes 2007-10-12 03:59 pm UTC (link)

This whole thing has shown me how much anti-semitism there really is in fandom, which...I don't know why that surprises me even a little, at this point, as my opinion of fandom has sunk to fairly low after so many years, but it does, and disappoints me. When fox1013's troll looks good because hey, he called her an overpriviliged Jewish stereotype but at least he didn't bust out the slurs, fandom is in bad shape, is all I'm saying. Which is all to say, basically, you have every goddamn right to be distressed by this (although I'm sure you don't need my affirmation), and "suck it up" is an entirely fair statement. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	cidercupcakes 2007-10-12 04:00 pm UTC (link)
	...overprivileged. NO RLY I CAN SPELL. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-12 04:23 pm UTC

(no subject) - minim_calibre, 2007-10-12 04:40 pm UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-13 11:17 am UTC

(no subject) - cidercupcakes, 2007-10-12 04:53 pm UTC

eretria 2007-10-12 04:14 pm UTC (link)

I guess I just don't see why this blew up so much in the first place. People could have just shrugged, gone: Yeah, okay, your opinion, we don't haev to share it and gone on with their lives. Why does everything have to end up in so much veiled (or not veiled) hatred? Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist ... we all share the same damn world. It shouldn't be so hard to apply some common sense and leave each other be exactly the kinds of people we are, religion or no religion involved. You shouldn't have to fear being too Jewish just as much as I shouldn't fear being too Christian. The key to everything is a little more patience and a lot more common sense. And, damn it, I am fascinated by other religions, so why put one over the other? My religion isn't better than yours, yours isn't better than mine. They're different. That's all there is to it. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	eretria 2007-10-12 04:15 pm UTC (link)
	And, yes, by the hatred I am referring to the antisemitic comments. Just to clear that up. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-12 04:26 pm UTC

embroiderama 2007-10-12 04:21 pm UTC (link)

I just found out about this whole thing today, and it's really disturbing. I've seen a lot of wank in fandom, but I'm still capable of being surprised by the ways people can be unkind to each other. I'm not any religion at all, but I grew up in a vaguely Christian household, so Christmas-related things don't bother me unless they're very explicitly religious in nature rather than the more secular cultural stuff. But telling people to suck it up or worse because they have a different background is just wrong. (Reply to this) (Thread)

vaznetti 2007-10-12 04:28 pm UTC (link)

I probably should be clear that I don't have a problem with Christmas -- I mean, I celebrate it every other year, when we go to my mother-in-law's, and there's a tree and presents and big meals and it's generally awesome. But it's not my holiday, and I don't think that's something that should be shocking to people. And the tone of some of the comments has been pretty distasteful. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	_minxy_ 2007-10-12 04:23 pm UTC (link)
	I am sticking around, and I would like to invite you to rock the boat just as hard as you want. I can't, you know, fix it if a fucktard comes around and starts throwing racial slurs, but maybe I can beat the shit out of the dude for you. Or mock them cruelly or something. I don't know. Rock on. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 05:33 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you! I am all for mocking people like that, I have to admit. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jennyo 2007-10-12 04:30 pm UTC (link)

So, two things: 1. No, that dude is a racist fuck who is using this issue to further his anti-semitic agenda, full stop. 2. I am completely unfamiliar with that part of the wank, as the discussion on my friendslist has been about Jewish invisibility, atheism, and the Christianization of culture. So I am in fact quite sorry if I was offensive there, cuz that's not the part of the drama I've been seeing. So yeah, if I got you, sorry. It's more that my flist is really super...full of hippie types who focus on meta-issues, and not so much with the focus on anti-semitic racist bastards. (Reply to this) (Thread)

vaznetti 2007-10-12 05:36 pm UTC (link)

Thanks. Your post was not the only one to set me off, but it did leave me feeling a little... I don't know. I mean, it feels to me like we went from "hello? two week sign-up window!" to "OMG! You Jews should just shut up!" really really quickly, so I was having a little trouble reading posts through my own anger, this morning. So yeah, thanks. That really does mean a lot to me. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	dagnylilytable 2007-10-12 04:30 pm UTC (link)
	Keep rocking the boat all you feel comfortable with. It's all deeply, deeply disturbing. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 09:45 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you. ::hug:: (Reply to this) (Parent)

jood 2007-10-12 04:38 pm UTC (link)

We don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to find out what's lurking under the water. Yeah, um, THIS. I realized how potentially hostile the environment was when I found myself getting pissed off at mamadeb for being oversensitive and myopic, because I knew the reaction was going to be disproportionate and painted with a very broad brush. Not a "mamadeb, you're a moron," but rather, "Those fucking Jews and their entitlement complexes..." I keep wanting to hide and not make waves and keep my fear to myself, but maybe this is what fandom needs. Maybe we need to stir things up by being honest; then we'll finally see what's lurking underneath the veneer of cordiality, and if the trolls come out ragey enough, we might have a chance of addressing the issue in full view of the entire community, where we have at least a slim chance of doing something about it. A lot of folks don't know they're harboring racist attitudes until it's pointed out to them that what they'd thought was simple truth was really something far more ugly. Maybe we need to do the same thing with anti-Semitism. So my M.O. is going to change. I'm going to talk about this shit, and I'm going to engage when it involves my friends. And I'm not going to be afraid of trolls. I've got your back. (Reply to this) (Thread)

se_parsons 2007-10-12 05:24 pm UTC (link)

In my reading, it seems that mamadeb has a long, long history of this kind of accusatory behavior and attempts to make other Jews conform to her strict practice - talked about by multiple sources. It's a shame that somebody who has been in many fandoms with her didn't just reply to the original post and it would have stopped the bad in its tracks with the "you're an idiot" card. However, we wouldn't have seen so many people showing their prejudiced asses, either. It shows us who needs to be first against the wall, anyway. But it makes you - and me, too, actually - feel bad and angry. Which is worse? Hard fucking call because it's not aimed at me, but at my friends. And I'm not a tribe member, so I don't really know what it's like. I'm just pissed off on your behalf and want to righteously kick some ass to defend you. But it's also not really taking place in venues I frequent and I don't want to troll. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - jacquez, 2007-10-12 09:23 pm UTC

(no subject) - se_parsons, 2007-10-12 10:07 pm UTC

(no subject) - jacquez, 2007-10-12 11:54 pm UTC

(no subject) - lavendertook, 2007-10-14 05:02 am UTC

(no subject) - se_parsons, 2007-10-14 08:28 am UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-14 01:54 pm UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-12 05:41 pm UTC

(no subject) - _minxy_, 2007-10-12 06:15 pm UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-13 11:14 am UTC

(no subject) - delux_vivens, 2007-10-20 07:09 pm UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-20 07:41 pm UTC

(no subject) - delux_vivens, 2007-10-20 08:58 pm UTC

(no subject) - lenadances, 2007-10-12 10:40 pm UTC

(no subject) - kita0610, 2007-10-13 03:42 am UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-13 11:07 am UTC

(no subject) - chopchica, 2007-10-13 09:16 pm UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-14 01:54 pm UTC

	musesfool 2007-10-12 04:49 pm UTC (link)
	I can't even... I don't even know what to say, it just makes me so angry to see this happening, and I can't even imagine how much more hurtful it is for you and Fox and Kita et al. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 05:45 pm UTC (link)
	Well, I mean, no one has called me anything awful, but yes, I could totally have lived without knowing that people in fandom -- people I share fannish space with, probably! -- have opinions like that. (Reply to this) (Parent)

veejane 2007-10-12 04:49 pm UTC (link)

Wow, that went from contentious to unbearable really fast. Like, in all of the racewank I've seen, I've never seen it get that obvious ugly and nasty; it's always been well-meaning-I-don't-get-it, or at least dig-my-hole-deeper-self-defensive, not "you and your global conspiracy." (I haven't been following the talk that closely; it's been mostly off my flist, and a little bit tealdeery/Ashkenazi 101 for me, so I'm glad you pointed it out.) That is deeply fucked up. I... feel I must comfort you with John Winchester comment fic, or something. (Reply to this) (Thread)

vaznetti 2007-10-12 05:53 pm UTC (link)

As an aside, "tealdeery" is absolutely my favorite recent fannish coinage. I just want to take it home and cuddle it. Like, in all of the racewank I've seen, I've never seen it get that obvious ugly and nasty; it's always been well-meaning-I-don't-get-it, or at least dig-my-hole-deeper-self-defensive, not "you and your global conspiracy." I think this is what I was getting at when I said in my other post that anti-semitism sometimes lives in different places or works differently than other forms of racism; they seem to me to be acceptable in different contexts, if that makes any sense, and they create different responses. John Winchester comment fic (or other fic) is never a bad thing. I feel strongly about this. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - vee_fic, 2007-10-12 06:46 pm UTC

(no subject) - coffeeandink, 2007-10-12 06:03 pm UTC

(no subject) - veejane, 2007-10-12 06:31 pm UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-12 09:29 pm UTC

	ex_greythist387 2007-10-12 04:53 pm UTC (link)
	So far, your posts are the only piece of the issue I've seen. That might say something in itself, given how many "l'shana tovah" posts I saw on my f-list around the same time--mostly that my f-list's fandom participants tend not to be into yuletide. But I'm glad to know about it, though it makes me angry. Rock on. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 05:47 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think this issue is really about yuletide at all -- I mean, the mods are running a huge ficathon, and the timing is the way it is, and I love the exchange, really. The issue is all the nasty stuff coming out in comments around the issue. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - ex_greythist387, 2007-10-14 06:52 am UTC

se_parsons 2007-10-12 05:15 pm UTC (link)

While I actually understand people being annoyed at the OP, who seemed to be accusing the mods of Yuletide of deliberately trying to make it so Jews couldn't participate in the fic-exchange. (And me - thinks religion in general is divisive and leads to stuff like this - likely to react with annoyance to ANYBODY ever who makes such claims when - DUDE, two week signup window, and sorry you didn't get an engraved invitation sent to your in-box -like nobody else did.) And also being annoyed at the pal of the mods of Yuletide who way, way overreacted at seeing her friends, she thought, being accused of deliberate anti-Semitism. But they really turned out to NOT be the problem- because it was kind of obvious and understandable where they both were coming from - even if you didn't agree with them. The true horror of this has been the resulting dredging up of black bile of anti-Semitism and hate from the belly of fandom. It has just been so truly awful my mind boggles. I think we are lulled into thinking that we're past that crap. Because a lot of our discourse is pretty high and open-minded in general because we're mostly pretty well-educated and skew liberal. You forget that education and politics doesn't guarantee that you've examined your prejudices. And seriously, you need backup in some kind of fight over this, you can call me, too. Though you probably don't want the help of an ex-Christian, kinda pagan who mostly is just hostile to - not faith - but religion in general because it gives people easy ways to hate and kill each other and entirely too many of them tell us that's ok to do. But you know. I'll go to the barricades for your right to practice the way you believe without hostility or bullcrap as long as you don't try to force other people to adopt your practice. (Then I switch sides and start kicking your ass.) This actually turned into the argument "My god can beat up your god." and "My faith is more weighty and important than your faith." It's like Fandom!Crusade, and not based around somebody's OTP and that's just horrible and sickening to see. NO WAY should anybody feel they need to be silent on this. Here is my John Winchester icon of butt-kicking hotness in solidarity to you. (Reply to this) (Thread)

jennyo 2007-10-12 05:20 pm UTC (link)

IAWTC. And apologize again, because I really did only hear about the OP and her issues, and I still think the OP is in the wrong and it rang like she wanted an engraved invitation to Yuletide, and that causes me to point/laugh/eyeroll. But yeah, IAWTC, because I hadn't even thought it was a question that Western "secular" culture is overly Christianized, and that Yuletide plays into that. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-12 09:28 pm UTC

(no subject) - se_parsons, 2007-10-12 09:52 pm UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-13 11:26 am UTC

(no subject) - se_parsons, 2007-10-13 08:25 pm UTC

(no subject) - shayheyred, 2007-10-16 01:34 am UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-16 02:41 am UTC

(no subject) - shayheyred, 2007-10-16 03:22 am UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-17 01:08 am UTC

(no subject) - shayheyred, 2007-10-17 01:14 am UTC

	snacky 2007-10-12 05:18 pm UTC (link)
	I don't even know what to say, except I'm sorry, and am here to listen to whatever you have to say. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 09:30 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you! That really means a lot. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jacquez 2007-10-12 05:38 pm UTC (link)

(Came in on friendsfriends.) chopchica's comment made me look back at the history of mamadeb's interactions, actually. I've known her a long long time, and you know...all the mailing list archives (that I have) or other places where she actually went to the trouble of straight-out saying things like "hey, this was uncool" or "could we shift that a little so I can participate" were met with, at best, no reply. More often with snark about her wanting special treatment, or some other nonsense. I mean...is it any wonder that she's sticking to being whiny her her lj instead of reaching out? If I got ignored or smacked down every time *I* reached out on a particular issue...well, I'd probably get louder and more hostile, but that's me, not her. So. Yeah. I can't imagine she's the only person who has gotten that reaction from others. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 09:34 pm UTC (link)
	I am... not entirely surprised to hear that, although I don't have any history with her. The thing that struck me is that it's exactly the kind of on-my-last-nerve post that anyone might make. But the vitriol around the issue is another matter entirely, and completely unforgivable. (Reply to this) (Parent)

medie 2007-10-12 05:52 pm UTC (link)

And in the meantime, a certain amount of straightforward anti-semitic content, and now someone went ahead and called someone else a kike. Anonymously, of course. Oh, beautiful. Stupidity for the win. *headdesk* Just. *NO*. Anonymous asswipe. Personally, I was very offended by some of the things she said in her original post. But, yeah, I can recognize a tactless comment when I see one. (And I've made posts like that. I'm just excessively paranoid and f-lock to hell and back.) We all have our moments of exhaustion/hormones/whatever circumstances that fry our brains. Having it explode into this with that kind of hate flying around? There are seriously no words for how *WRONG* that shit is. (and believe me, that fear's justified. Given how many times in fandom I bite my proverbial tongue for the same reason? YEAH I don't begrudge you that fear a bit. But please, if I cross some line at some point? Please tell me, okay?) (Reply to this) (Thread)

vaznetti 2007-10-12 09:44 pm UTC (link)

I think I would have to give you a free pass, considering how often I've been impolite about Canada, even just by accident! (At some point, though, I will have to tell you about my moment of, "you know, if this were a Tim Horton's donut, it would be better," glory.) But yeah, we've all made that exhausted and tactless post -- what's shocking here is the kind of response she and other people have received. It's funny -- I guess I'm used to thinking of fandom as being prejudiced against other people, not me. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - medie, 2007-10-14 03:40 am UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-14 01:35 pm UTC

loligo 2007-10-12 06:22 pm UTC (link)

And you know, I don't want to distrust you. I don't want to feel like I can't speak my mind, or say that something makes me feel uncomfortable or excluded. There was something I read during IBARW that I can't find now -- I know it was in a blog, not LJ -- that addressed exactly this. The woman was saying that whenever a minority person talks about something that makes them uncomfortable, some seemingly-friendly majority person is sure to say, "But why can't you give us the benefit of the doubt? You must know we didn't mean anything harmful by it!" And she said, "I *am* giving you the benefit of the doubt by being willing to talk about it with you. I'm making the assumption that you care about my feelings and respect my opinion, and I'm always scared I'll be proved wrong." I guess this is a very long-winded way of saying "You're not alone." And I hope people respond to your post in ways that make you more likely to give us the benefit of the doubt, and not less. (Reply to this) (Thread)

vaznetti 2007-10-12 09:58 pm UTC (link)

That's a really interesting quote, and very true. You do have to trust people in order to make the post in the first place -- because it raises the possibility that they won't respond positively. I mean for this post to be my way of saying that I do trust my friends list and the people who read this journal, even though I know it's very difficult to read it that way. And thank you -- these comments really matter to me. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - minnow1212, 2007-10-13 12:26 am UTC

	e_juliana 2007-10-12 06:33 pm UTC (link)
	Fandom loses yet again. ARGH. Why must people suck so much? Why can't people just own their shit, and say to other people who own their own shit - "Hey, you own your shit. Very cool. Let's accommodate each other"? I'm not coherent. Sorry. But I always want you, and everyone else, to speak their mind. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 10:28 pm UTC (link)
	It is a little weird to me that it has all gotten so far out of hand so quickly. But it's also really horrifying,. So thank you. Every comment here means a lot to me. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	the_jackalope 2007-10-12 07:14 pm UTC (link)
	I am so sorry this has happened. I cannot believe the utter asshattery that is going around because of this. And this is an excellent essay thing. I think any environment where people feel uncomfortable being too anything is a bad one, and I really hope fandom doesn't become such a place. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 11:07 pm UTC (link)
	I don't want fandom to be such a place, either. I just keep thinking of the people who have been posting about race since forever, and how long it's taken for that to have much effect at all. (Reply to this) (Parent)

irishkate 2007-10-12 07:22 pm UTC (link)

When I first read the comment by mamadeb I thought that while she was free to say what she felt on her journal - it was more likely that she was being paranoid than not. But the responses have been *astonishing* to say the least. I know you spoke on this topic earlier and it opened my mind further to the issue. I'm not sure that I believe organisers need to accomodate all (or any) religions for a ficathon. But those people who replied certainly should take a long hard look at their responses. I can't make it better except to be more careful myself. So all I CAN say is *sympathy* - (Reply to this) (Thread)

vaznetti 2007-10-12 11:13 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I know what you mean about assuming she was paranoid, but then I was shocked by the response as well. I mean, I am paranoid, and I'm horrified too. I don't think there's anything wrong with the ficathon itself: I mean, sure, it's a Christmas exchange, and there's nothing wrong with that. the problem is with the people who responded with such vitriol and prejudice. And thank you for the sympathy -- it really means a lot. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Self-fulfilling prophecy? - cheshyre, 2007-10-13 11:08 pm UTC

Re: Self-fulfilling prophecy? - vaznetti, 2007-10-14 01:37 pm UTC

Re: Self-fulfilling prophecy? - cheshyre, 2007-10-14 03:17 pm UTC

	gryphonrhi 2007-10-12 08:42 pm UTC (link)
	{{hugs}} No, you never have to worry that you can't speak your mind to me. I'm so very sorry all of this blew up, for all our sakes. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 11:17 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks. In a way it's a relief to have it out in the open -- I mean, I would probably have been happier not knowing that people in fandom held such antisemitic opinions -- but then again, maybe it's better to have it out where I can see it. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - gryphonrhi, 2007-10-16 02:42 am UTC

	subtly_modded 2007-10-12 09:09 pm UTC (link)
	Wow. I was ignorant of this whole thing till last night. I'm reading around, just so that I can get a grip of what was said/what's going on, and it's really just making me cringe. Thank you for posting this. I hate that it's happening, but I'm glad that I know what's going on. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-12 11:41 pm UTC (link)
	I had been ignoring it, because I suspected it would be disturbing -- but then it kind of blew up, and I found I couldn't any more. It's really disturbing to see all this come to the surface, though. (Reply to this) (Parent)

lenadances 2007-10-12 10:34 pm UTC (link)

All I can think since I heard of this and got a whiff of what seemed to be in the air was-- if you'll excuse the expression, which under the circumstances is almost hilariously inappropriate-- Jesus Christ. What in the world is wrong with people? If a member of one group being an asshole makes the whole group questionable, then lord help me since I think that in some technical sense I share a religious background (and sadly, gender) with Ann Coulter. I am so sorry for this. I feel like just by existing in some-vague-form-of-Christianity and filling out the numbers by one more, I'm somehow enabling fucktards like this to say "but we're the majority, so we're more important and somehow this means that you suck!" I feel like sending food, which is the way of the Midwestern Lutheran to show sympathy... except that in this case I think it would be more useful to make a solemn pledge that the next time I hear somebody talking like that, I kick them in the (physical or metaphorical) crotch. Otherwise it's like I'm saying this is okay, and it's not by any stretch of the imagination okay. I'm grateful that you trusted us enough to speak on this-- and again, I'm so, so sorry about these fuckers. ::hugs:: (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lenadances 2007-10-12 11:47 pm UTC (link)
	I still felt useless, so I wrote this. Admittedly as a member of the majority I can't really know what this is like, but this is my best guess. Lemme know what to fix. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-13 12:19 am UTC

(no subject) - lenadances, 2007-10-13 01:17 am UTC

(no subject) - vaznetti, 2007-10-13 12:32 pm UTC

thepouncer 2007-10-12 11:06 pm UTC (link)

Since the very beginning of this (and I saw it before it hit fandom wank), I have been appalled at the hate spewed. FW only made it worse, and now? I find it almost unbelievable. You are *always* welcome to post about issues like this, because people need to be aware of the horrible, horrible way some have acted. I'm not Jewish (culturally protestant, areligious in practice), and I think this is some of the *most wrong* statements I've ever seen. There aren't words to express my horror. You aren't alone in that. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-13 01:24 am UTC (link)
	It has been shocking, I agree, and I don't really know how to understand what happened. (I haven't been entirely sure whether it's objectively worse, or seems worse because it's happening to me and I can read the code -- there's a lot of coded racism when people react to discussions about race in fandom, for example.) But yeah, I don't know. It's pretty horrifying. (Reply to this) (Parent)

celli 2007-10-13 01:00 am UTC (link)

:( I'm so infuriated by some of these comments that I'm seeing, and really upset that people are hurting you and Fox and Jade and Chop and other people I really care about and a ton of people I don't even know. I don't feel like there's anything I can do to really help--although if I think of something, I will damn well do it--but I can definitely listen, so please keep talking as much as you want to. And if you catch me being an idiot, I hope you can call me on it. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vaznetti 2007-10-13 01:27 am UTC (link)
	Well, I am hardly free of idiocy myself, even at the best of times. It makes a big difference just to know that other people are listening, and thinking, and are also upset and angry about this. ::hug:: (Reply to this) (Parent)

camille_is_here 2007-10-13 01:58 am UTC (link)

So, I think mamadeb was not wrong. I think more than a hundred messages basically saying, "your views are invalid and don't count," are just more evidence that she wasn't wrong. My observation has been that there are a LOT of Jewish fans. The fact that the story exchange is called Yuletide, and that the timing makes it very difficult for jewish fans to participate, is NOT indicative of rabid fire-breathing swastika-painting anti-semiticism. But it IS indicative of that other, quieter, more passive "What do you care; this is not about you" exclusion of a lot of their neighbors, because, after all, they did call it Yuletide, which is a clear indicator of the expected guestlist. Maybe they don't even know that it's not just one or two people who expect an engraved invitation, but a lot of Jewish fans who find a way to participate anyway or who would participate if they did not feel excluded. Maybe the do know, and don't care, because they feel that even in the small world of fandom everything doesn't have to be about everybody. But they are a part of fandom. I'd like to hope that the anonymous posters of vile and rabid anti-semitism are not part of fandom but are trolls who search out keywords on the net to spread their hate. But there are bad people everywhere, and we are not immune. It doesn't make us all bad people. But it surely does make one wary of one's neighbors (Reply to this) (Thread)

vaznetti 2007-10-13 07:40 pm UTC (link)

I think more than a hundred messages basically saying, "your views are invalid and don't count," are just more evidence that she wasn't wrong. Yeah, this. Well, the ironic thing is that IIRC the original organizers of Yuletide are Jewish; I mean, I've run at least two Secret Santa exchanges in Alias, both of which had "Santa" in the title. And in some ways it's harder to do Yuletide it you're celebrating Christmas -- I mean, in those years I'm away without access to a computer from at least the 23rd to the 27th, and even if I had a computer, I wouldn't have a lot of time to read fic! But that doesn't remove the original point, that some Jews (and presumably Muslims and others, but not pagans) do feel excluded by the name and timing, and even more, that people who mention this, however tactlessly, are shouted down and told that their concerns don't matter. I'd like to hope that the anonymous posters of vile and rabid anti-semitism are not part of fandom but are trolls who search out keywords on the net to spread their hate. I wish that were true, but don't believe it for a moment. As you say, it makes one wary of one's neighbors. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - camille_is_here, 2007-10-13 08:33 pm UTC

	forodwaith 2007-10-13 03:34 am UTC (link)
	Oh gosh. I've been offstage pursued by RL for a couple of weeks, and I'd missed this whole issue. Now I'm so angry at the asshats who've probably succeeded in making most of the non-Christian participants in Yuletide feel *really* unwelcome. Way to go, jerks. I'm not too Jewish. I'm Jewish. Hear, hear. (Reply to this) (Thread)

vaznetti 2007-10-13 07:42 pm UTC (link)

Thank you! And sorry that you had to come back to such unpleasantness. I think most people are trying to keep a distinction between Yuletide itself and all the fuss that's been going on around this issue. I do kind of wish that there had been some comment on it over there, but at the same time i can see why the Yuletide moderators don't want to touch the mess with a ten foot pole. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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