Vanzetti ([info]vaznetti) wrote,
@ 2009-05-11 23:04:00
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I am usually the last person to comment on lj about egregiously racist failures, so I am a little surprised not to have seen more posts about this; maybe I've been missing them. The archive is here, if you want to trace the discussion. Plenty of people there are far more thoughtful and eloquent than I could be.

If you're wondering, the short version, as encapsulated by me and my husband --
Me: Let's say you were an editor or publisher and were handed a novel where the Europeans got to the Americas and discovered that there were no humans there, but the megafauna had survived the Pleistocene dieout. Would you think (a) mammoths! saber-toothed tigers! cool! or (b) you know, wiping out all the Native Americans from your history and replacing them by literal wild dangerous beasts is deeply, deeply hinky.
Him: Hm. I guess the second thing.
Me: Yeah, you'd think, wouldn't you?

Or, more eloquently, by [info]hermetic, Fundamentally, I cannot escape the idea that [writing such a book is] an act that results in real-world harm because it disappears peoples who have already been systematically removed physically, culturally, linguistically, and spiritually, from their own landscape. It completes their erasure.

Which pretty much says it all, I think. I have pretty high standards for "immoral" as applied to a work of literature, but this one is pushing them.

* * *

I have half-formed thoughts on alternate histories, and why I want to read them and almost always end up horribly disappointed; I guess it's that historical causality is too complex, and I end up waving my hands a lot and saying "but, but, but... once you've changed that, how do you end up there?" I don't have the same problem with fantasy, although most fantasy worlds don't work (historically, economically, whatever), but once people start playing with history my brain goes into overdrive.

I am also reminded of Robert Silverberg's Roma Eterna, one of those books where the Roman Empire never falls; I remember it only vaguely, because it wasn't very good as a novel. It was more a collection of historical sketches, I think -- actually, it turns out that the book is a collection of short stories written over an number of years, which makes sense. But it seems relevant in this context, because IIRC Silverberg decided Christianity caused the fall of Rome, and to ensure that there were no Christians he short-circuited the Exodus: no Jews, no Judea, no Jesus, therefore no Christians. Except that actually there are Jews, still in Egypt, still waiting for the Exodus, which actually occurs in the final story -- in the punchline -- in spaceships. Which is what makes this book an entirely different proposition, I think: history isn't erased but postponed.

* * *

Off and on in comments about this I see people looking for books which deal with America, and American myth, and in this context I keep thinking of Michael Chabon's Summerland, which I read again while in San Francisco. Has anyone else read this book? and if not, why not? People who like (or want to like) Supernatural but wish ithad more folklore and fewer race and gender issues should read this book. I think baseball is boring, but I love it. Which is not to say that it gets everything right; I mean, I'm not qualified to say whether it gets anything right, as far as the inclusion of Native American characters goes. My outsider perspective is that Chabon is trying here and is not failing utterly, but other people may feel differently.



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[info]cschick
2009-05-11 10:18 pm UTC (link)
I have half-formed thoughts on alternate histories, and why I want to read them and almost always end up horribly disappointed; I guess it's that historical causality is too complex, and I end up waving my hands a lot and saying "but, but, but... once you've changed that, how do you end up there?"

Yeah. Alternate history has never really been something that really got me reading, because I always find the places where the idea fails.

Although, your mention of world in which the Roman empire did not fall reminds me vaguely of either a YA novel or series of novels I read back in the day, where the two (male?) characters get thrown into a world where Columbus never discovered American because the Roman Empire did not fall. First, they live in the Americas, where the Aztec Empire took over the land mass (it's supposed to be the 20th century by the calendar, so it's a "what would have happened to the Americas if the Europeans never showed up), then they somehow end up in Europe, in a modernesque culture evolved from the Romans.

Now I'm wondering what the heck that series was.

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[info]coffeeandink
2009-05-11 10:29 pm UTC (link)
The Aquilad by S.P. Somtow?

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[info]cschick
2009-05-11 10:38 pm UTC (link)
The description on Amazon doesn't sound familiar.

I remember there was definitely world-traveling involved, that the two characters came from "our" world and first were tossed into a alter-America where one of the great native civilization ruled (and somehow almost got themselves killed in a game court), and then ended up across the ocean in the romanesque culture where they were speaking some bastardized version of Latin.

And I think the sudden, magical journey across the ocean took place at the end of book 1, and I either never found, or was so annoyed by book 1, that I never read book 2 :P

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[info]veejane
2009-05-11 11:08 pm UTC (link)
I read Summerland. And I thought it was okay, but it didn't seem to be written for adults. So, despite my not disliking it totally, it didn't grab me the way I think an adult novel would have, and doesn't stick in the mind very deeply.

(Also, as I recall, the resolution of the subplot about the bat with a knot in it makes no sense -- ask me sometime about baseball players who pee on their own hands in order to toughen the skin.)

(This is the kind of disgusting real-world detail you keep me around for, right?)

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[info]timesink
2009-05-11 11:58 pm UTC (link)
I think "Summerland" was intended to be a young adult novel, which I wish I'd known when I read it. I thought it was kind of twee, myself.

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[info]vaznetti
2009-05-12 09:29 am UTC (link)
Hunh. It didn't occur to me that it wasn't obviously a YA novel. But peeing on his hands would definitely have improved it.

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[info]ethrosdemon
2009-05-11 11:49 pm UTC (link)
To be completely honest, I feel that Americans are trained to be insensitive to indigenous issues and so when someone displays that insensitivity I normally just think "par for the course." Our entire culture is predicated on the concept that not only was indigenous culture less valuable than European culture, but that the native peoples were LUCKY Europeans stumbled across the "new world." It's only a logical progression to thought-experiment natives out of the narrative, frankly.

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[info]vaznetti
2009-05-12 09:26 am UTC (link)
I think I expect more self-consciousness when people are actually thinking about the European settlement and how that might have gone differently.

Our entire culture is predicated on the concept that not only was indigenous culture less valuable than European culture, but that the native peoples were LUCKY Europeans stumbled across the "new world."

The first I grant you. Absolutely. But the second? Really? I think it's more a matter of, "well, it was catastrophic for them, but that doesn't matter because it was great for me."

Although I did like Jo Walton's comment that she didn't realize that it might be offensive because she is English. (To which my husband commented, "well, we didn't acquire an empire by worrying about a little genocide here and there.")

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[info]thistleingrey
2009-05-12 12:37 am UTC (link)
I've been reading the tor.com thread (and commented a couple of times, under a different nym), but I haven't posted about it because I feel as though everyone's already voiced my thoughts better than I could.

I think that if one really feels one must wipe out whole peoples in order to play a game, one should conduct the Gedankenexperiment in private or with friends but not attempt to publish it. Wrede doesn't seem to've intended real malice, but the OH NO quotation from her old r.a.sf.c post is... just... no. And, as your post suggests, how much blindness is floating around that no one explained to her why the book's central idea is problematic between its point of inception and the appearance of printed copies in bookshops? Arrgh.

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[info]vaznetti
2009-05-12 09:31 am UTC (link)
The OH NO quotation is just... I mean, the fact that she did it on purpose makes it just that much worse, somehow. You see that there's a problem with the representation of Native Americans in this kind of story, but your solution is just not to have any Native Americans? Argh, indeed.

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[info]celli
2009-05-12 01:29 am UTC (link)
Aw, damn. I love the other stuff of hers I've read. But this concept makes me decidedly uncomfortable.

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[info]vaznetti
2009-05-12 09:32 am UTC (link)
It is creepy. And sadly, a number of other authors seem to be behaving poorly in the discussion, as well.

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[info]cofax7
2009-05-12 02:33 am UTC (link)
I liked Summerland a great deal, as I recall, but it didn't make a huge impact on me, and I'm not sure if that's because it didn't feel... new. You know? If you read a lot of fantasy, YA and other, what Chabon was doing there wasn't surprising, although for what it was, it was well-done. It wasn't nearly as engaging to me, though, as Kavalier & Clay or Gentlemen of the Road. I may have to reread it, it's been several years.

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[info]vaznetti
2009-05-12 09:28 am UTC (link)
Hm. Although Gentlemen of the Road isn't new either, is it? I found it more engaging than Kavalier and Clay (which I think is so deeply flawed as to be un-rereadable, but that's just me), at least.

I don't know. I just liked it.

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[info]camille_is_here
2009-05-12 12:20 pm UTC (link)
Judith Berman's Bear Daughter is based in Northwest myths and legends. It is different from most fantasy, because the point of most fantasy is to make the narrative seem real, and the point of Bear Daughter is to make it seem myth. I think it is YA, and it is certainly a good book. I didn't have trouble with it in the "too hard or too boring" way but, oddly, I was uncomfortable reading it.

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[info]vaznetti
2009-05-14 04:08 pm UTC (link)
I think I've seen it somewhere -- I'll keep an eye out for it, though, and maybe actually get it next time.

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[info]aceofkittens
2009-05-13 05:27 pm UTC (link)
I don't know anything about the author or the discussion - but I would be very interested to know whether Native American authors/leaders have stepped out to denounce this book, or if this hue and outcry is something happening on behalf of them by well, us, as sometimes seems to be the case in online discussions of racism.
I hope that doesn't come off wrong, because I'm genuinely curious what someone who is Native American would think of this book. Or whether it's even possible to generalize - perhaps it would be different for different people. Is the overal point of the book: "Mammoths! Sabertooth Tigers! Magic! Wheee!" or do they keep mentioning, "Huh, we found no people here! How... awesome!" or...?

I am not a historian, so my response to this sort of book is not going to be as strong as yours, I think. I have no problem with the concept. It seems no different than any other crappy fantasy novel — quite honestly, it never would have even entered my mind to perceive it as a racist slam against indigenous people. So perhaps I ought to re-examine a few things. But, then again, I wouldn't have been upset to learn that there was a fantasy/alternate history novel where all the Russian Jews had been killed in pogroms and there had been no Russian Revolution and the Russian Empire continued to fluorish (actually, I think someone did write that book). Again, I obviously have a very different perspective on this sort of thing. :)

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[info]aceofkittens
2009-05-13 05:39 pm UTC (link)
Hmm, clicking through your link to other links to see the length and breadth of the debate from all kinds of different angles and responses from people who self-identify as "People Of Color (POC)," I guess that sort of answers my question!

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[info]vaznetti
2009-05-14 04:14 pm UTC (link)
I think it's pretty easy to assume that everybody on the internet is white, which is why people sometimes make a point of self-identifying.

Again, I obviously have a very different perspective on this sort of thing.

Yeah, and that's totally valid -- for you! But obviously it doesn't mean that no one should ever be upset about it. There's a post about what the author thought she was doing here. I think it's pretty face-palmy, but YMMV.

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[info]aceofkittens
2009-05-14 05:57 pm UTC (link)
My reason for mentioning the self-identification as POC wasn't because I assume that everyone on the internet was white. I was specifically interested in seeing what people who are non-white thought of it, since, well, you and I are both white, and I don't know if the other respondents on your post were white. Seeing some responses from people who are POC answered some of my questions.

And, I didn't say that other people shouldn't be upset; I just said that I myself did not have that response. I realize my inability to see this as "ZOMG RACEFAIL 2009" may be some kind of failing on my part and I would like to understand what that says about me, but I also think that assigning so much time and value to what is probably, in the end, a shlocky, mediocre YA fantasy novel, is giving it WAY too much credit and importance and making people read/buy it who otherwise would never have even heard of it. I'm not saying that this debate shouldn't happen, because it most definitely should, but it's giving Wrede about 100,000 times more publicity than she ever would have had for this crappy book otherwise.

I discussed this at great length last night with a friend who is a POC. He said: "My assessment is: clueless author digs grave deeper with blockheaded remarks." He also said, "Media representations are more powerful than we understand, and not as powerful as some think." Let's just leave it at that.

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